The Peter Best AGM was held this year in a small room without opening windows, which was a bit sticky! The usual silence ensued as Technical Officers and Secretaries were re-elected – with no-one wanting to take the position of class F drivers rep. However, the Peter Besters soon piped up when we got to AOB… Some interesting issues were rasied – and some that will probably lead to another incredibly long drivers meeting 
Issues raised were:
- Longer races, if we can fill our grids, we should be able to bargain for longer races for the same prices, aiming for a minimum of 20mins
- BCV8 competitors coming over, we expect a lot of the group B cars to come over from the BCV8 championship, what should we do about regulating them? Should they be allowed in?
- Regulations on B series engines to keep costs down, this was also raised breifly, in relation to the above. It is possible to get 200hp plus out of a 1950 B series engine, but only if you own a bank.
- Split grids, it seems theres not a lot of love for Metros – calls to stop splitting the PBIC with other races. Could the PBIC fill two grids?
- All V8’s in group C, are all the V8s fast enough to go in Group C 
I wonder what the general feelings are on all these points? Hopefully that Jonesey fellow will post something to get us all talking about it – as I for one want to ensure the maximum amount of beer drinking time at this years Dinner Dance! If you have any views on the above, or other suggestions leave a comment and start the debate…
Wind-up merchants welcome!
Longer races are great if you’re not in the lead! Of course who doesn’t want more track time for the buck. The only downer is the smaller engined cars that are a little more highly strung may suffer reliability issues when or if it’s hot. During the Birkett 6hr I do 50-60 mins no probs but it’s usually freezing cold.
BCV8 cars can run as long as they’re within our regs, no brainer that one.
B series engines regs are the same as mine and as these engines are ‘original’ fit engines, why should we de-tune them. We’re still using carbs and clockwork dizzys too. It’s usually cheaper to run a virtually no limits class than one with tighter restrictions on tuning. There are Cadet Karts out there with engines costing as much as ours due to trade secret tweaks!
Split grids are a necessary evil to avoid reserves, unless the influx of entrants from other series remains a constant to justify two PBIC grids.
I’ve no issue with the V8s running class B as long as their regs are fair enough to equalise the performance gap with rest of their class. I remember a time when MGCs weren’t allowed much in the way of tuning, much like the V8s now.
Compulsory pit stops where at least two wheel changes must occur. CX TBCO by the Driver, wheel braces and scissor jacks only! Should sort the men from the boys!
“BCV8 cars can run as long as they’re within our regs, no brainer that one.”
Hi Simon,
to explain my suggestion regarding 4 cylinder BCV8 cars…
I don’t want them banned, just the opposite infact, but I do want them put in class C with you & me, where their lap times show they belong.. they are far too quick for PBIC class B.
I will look into the mods on their 12 grand engines, but for a start, cam belts, electric water pumps & split twin webbers should all be class C spec.
Whats in this for me you ask? Nothing, because I know if they do come into class C, I’ll probably be behind them, as I say, check out their lap times!
As I’m sat here protecting the Realm, I printed the regs for both series Class B MGBs. As far as I can tell the only contestable differences are as follows:
1. Engine mods. ours state no alloy castings
2. Theirs don’t prohibit Dry Sumping (do they run them?)
3. Transmission. Ours allow alternate gearboxes ie ford Type 9, theirs must be MGB based.
4. Theirs allows MGBV8 discs, ours only solids.
5. Weights. At 838 0urs are 1 Kg lighter, but if you make them run in class C then that’s 723Kgs! How quick will they be then.
As far as I can see, split webbers are easy to ban but only worth a few BHP now days, as are electric water pumps. I don’t think any of our class B lads run these but stand to be corrected.
As always with racing it’s a fact of life, size does matter (cheque book of course,) and erks like me who do all their own work will always be-grudge the loaded. I notice that all but a few of their lap records are McCarthy based, all a few years back and not too far out our reach.
Simon…..As a BCV8 “driver” of 6 seasons, let me tell you the way I see it.
If we look at the times at Silverstone, there in black & white for all to see, they will illustrate my point more clearly.
Firstly, I do not really regard Andy Youngs or David Brookes cars as PBIC class B. In fact, if you check BCV8 regs, both Andys & Daves cars are BCV8 class C, so how come they are in PBIC class B, always regarded as a “less competative” (slower) championship?
So lets for the sake of argument put their qualifying & race times to one side for a moment……..
At Silversone, BCV8 had Robb Huff (pro driver) on 1.40.02, Tom Jones 1.41.30, Russel McCarthy 1.41.60, James Wheeler 1.41.80 etc, etc.
They completed 8 laps in between 13min 39 secs to 13 min 53 secs.
Our fastest lads (bless em) lapped at…. Peter Bramble 1.44.50 to Terry Burrows 1.47.70. More importantly, they covered the same 8 laps in between 14min 18sec to 14 min 40 secs.
So where on earth are class B PBIC cars going to find AT LEAST 40 seconds (34 seconds if you don’t count Rob Huff) in a 16 min race?
EVEN silly old me & Dave Brooke could only finish in 14 min 06 secs…
Simon Cripps & Dan Ludlow, our “super fast” C class only came in 4 seconds faster, so tricked up 4 pots clearly are more fitting in PIBC Class C rather than class B.
I’m interested to hear your comments on the above.
To any of the drivers mentioned above, this is MY HONEST OPINION & NOT a personal dig at anybody or their cars. It’s just the way the rules have evolved, and you know what they say rules are made for…. or maybe its OK for Class B to be quicker than Class C ?
As mentioned before, it really is in my own cup collecting interests to keep them all in class B, well away from me, so perhaps I am just shooting myself in the foot!
Cheers
Vic
I’m with you on this one Vic, we can’t force our group B 1950’s to spend £12,000 in order to be competitive as most of them simply cannot afford it. I think we need to be totally clear about what is going into these engines so we can come up with some regulations for them in either group C or their own class?
It sounds like there are a lot of 1950’s in garages all over the UK that choose not to race as they simply cannot compete with the V8’s and the MGC in group B, after all we are all here to try and win – not just to be another number!
Ollie
Chaps, yes they are exceedingly quick and well driven cars. As I said in my ‘trawl of the regs’ reply, our class C min weight is 115KGs lighter than class B. On slicks and lighter, all in class C may as well pack our bags and retire as well. In the years between my bashes at racing, tyre technology had advance considerably. In the 90s the best tyre was the A008, but the A048 is in a different league so the performance advantage of running clicks is virtually nil, I couldn’t believe how quick they were. Plus if the weather’s iffy you’re a bit safer. Should the tyre choices for the other classes be more ‘road’ orientated? The other thing to remember when comparing times is that our varied field is full of models with different strengths. This invariably slows us up a bit, as does our much larger field when the lappery occurs. My times are always a second or so shy of the Midget Challenge guys, but my car is about 60 lbs over min weight as is the driver!
Anyway I digress. Perhaps a Maximum choke, carb size and compression ratio is the way to go. This would impact the big BHP engines far more.
It will always come down to chequebook size in the end, take it from someone who’s never raced on new tyres in his life. I think ‘the spirit of the championship’ should be enforced here and maybe we just don’t let them join. Over to you…
It’s an interesting debate about the BCV8 cars – and one that I’m sure will run and run! It is perhaps worth mentioning that, in the scheme of things the PBIC is a relatively low-cost championship, you could refer to it as entry level racing. Clearly as you go up to modified and full race classes costs will increase but isn’t it within the clubs interests to keep costs down as much as is reasonable to maintain its entry level status?
It would seem the easiest way to do it is with regulations, but actually, if the quicker cars are never checked – which they aren’t – what is the point of the regulations? One thing that is checked relatively often is weight, which makes a sensible success-ballasting system an easy solution. I’d be inclined to let the BCV8 cars in providing a system is in place to keep the racing close and competitive.
To decide what class the BCV8 cars should go in we need to understand the full spec of the engines to understand the differences to one of our good Class B 4 pots. Clearly there are some pretty fundamental differences to get over 200bhp vs Blaine’s old 4 pot at 166bhp. Once we know the difference we can write proper regs to accommodate them.
Going back to race lengths too, I don’t think we want to see 30minute endurance races! Just perhaps race lengths that reflect the popularity of the PBIC, unlike the 13mins + 1lap at Mallory this year!
Anyway – I seem to have written a small book! Enough now!
Mav
I’m sure someone will still not believe this but here goes anyway
My current engine was installed for the 1998 season and the current brake setup was introduced later in the year. Since then with the exception of a change from Yoko 008Rs to 032Rs then 048Rs I’ve changed nothing. My lap times have gone from 1:47.3 down to 1:43.7 so an extra ten year experience is worth something when combined with modern tyres.
As Maverick has pointed out, the contents of the fast BCV8 engines is an unknown quantity.
Bear in mind that the Mini Miglia spec is somewhat less free than our Class B or C for a Midget, controlled cam, standard valve sizes, only 1293 rather than 1380cc, one barrel of a Weber 45…but with the extremes of development they put out well over 100HP per litre for around 5 grand a go…For a few races…then they tend to go sick.
A 1950 B series with the same HP per litre costs rather more…and also goes sick after a few races.
I can vouch for Dave’s engine still being the old one – the new ‘quick’ engine he built up a few years ago is still sat in the garage gathering spiders!
Fair point Dave, for example our ZS was turning in 1:43 laps during a later race with a different driver at the wheel for the first stint (not Anthony Reid this time) and we all remember Peters plea for a lower weight limit and/or more power. Thankfully that footage of Castle Combe proved otherwise. How credible are these 200Bhp claims, is it only drivers who aren’t as quick that believe them. I’ve definitely been guilty of that when Paul Sibley used to run with us, I always thought I was 10-15 Bhp down. Unfortunately my mates ran the rollers where his engine was checked out, so I had no excuse as it wasn’t that much and they took the piss relentlessly. Confidence in the car and carrying corner speed are the keys and just maybe they’re just that bit better! For instance Dave, have you ever been able to compare straight line speed with any of them? Home in 30 days hip hip
Very good point Simon, I think we need to see a power graph or some other proof of what these McCarthy engines are running – can’t rely on Chinese Whispers! If they want to come over they should have no problem providing us with all the facts.
It’ll be an interesting test at Mallory (having been amalgamated with BCV8) against the Wheeler Bros – especially if Blaine can get anywhere near them with the camera in the car
Hurry back Simon – we need someone to challenge Simon and Dan!
Well my incar camera would have shown Blaine pulling away easily at Snet last year if I’d charged the battery…
We’ll all be looking a little closer now.
I’m sure it would show that, interestingly though, if you look at Blaine’s vid it shows him getting a better run out of the corner
Yes, lighter car with the same or more power so it pulls away……
BHP – yes, Torque – NO. If I recall correctly you have 100lbs of torque more than us which is hardly insignificant is it!
Calm down Ollie!
Thats what makes the PBIC more varied I think – like Simon says:
“The other thing to remember when comparing times is that our varied field is full of models with different strengths.”
Variation is the key to entertainment.
For those that have seen the in car video from Silverstone of Peter’s ZS and the shopping trolley, I think it demonstrates the balance between straight line speed versus not using the middle pedal…
Hi guys, re the ZS for refernce the car is standard aport from 270 spec cams, stock ecu etc. The car put out 173 prior to cams and approx 186 after. The car weighs in at 1250, + my 17 stone does not help. However with a better driver the car can be quicker as Cassey showed at Silverstone, however I am sure any of our cars could go quicker with a more professional driver.
With regard to reg’s I would of thought all V8’s in one class would make sense. clearly there are more cars coming into the series and all of us are still enjoying the racing which is the main thing.
With any club based series there will always be mixed ability and mixed budgets.
I like it simple Car £1000 cage seat tyres fire system £1200 cams £500 job done good cheap racing.
I thought I would add my opinion on the debate about the BCV8 Class B cars. I did one race in the PBIC last year and I’m now rebuilding my car to Class A spec for 2010. The reason is the cost of building a decent Class B car.
I spoke to McCarthy Motorsport about a full race engine build and they quoted me 12k and estimated a power output of around 175-185BHP not 200BHP. The only car I know that produced over 200BHP was Rob Huff’s car on Peter Baldwin’s RR. My car produced 165BHP on Peter Baldwin’s RR yet James Walpole pulled out about 100yards on me exiting the pitlane at Castle Combe last year so I don’t think we can rely on those figures. I think a reliable 200BHP is possible from an MGB but only using leaded race fuel and circa 16:1CR. On pump fuel I don’t think it’s possible.
Surely if the Class B cars are too fast then the regs should be amended to slow them down. Having said that, has a front running BCV8 class B car entered a PBIC race this year?
Joe
Joe,
For under 4K we can build you a ZS for class B.
For an extra 2k on engine work (port polish balance)we turned our other ZS into a Britcar spec car currently running 2nd overall in class. (thats without throttle bodies, forged pistons wild cams and trick ecu) The KV6 is a lovely engine after all its a v8 with 2 pots cut of a favourite trick from Rover.
I appreciate the integra based ZS is not everybody cup of tea but you can build one for class B with 3 sets of tyres and new brain james trailer a old volvo to tow it and seasons entries for less than that engine build price.
The joys of modern unloved MG’s
Or pay for an arrive and drive in a class A ZS new for next season or class b car which we will be running.
Hello All!
I’ve been on my hols for the last fortnight, good to see I have prompted some lively debate in my absence!
I obvoiusly know the result of the Mallory race on Sunday, but have not seen the times…….. I don’t really need to, but can somebody please tell me the gap between the fastest BCV8 4 pot & the nearest PBIC 4 pot?
I bet you couldn’t squeeze a fag paper between them, could you?
I would expect the result of that race confirms exactly what I said in my earlier post, but hey, all those think they can convince me otherwise, I await your explanations with baited breath.
Yours in anticipation
Vic
Dave Brooke said
“I’m sure someone will still not believe this but here goes anyway
My current engine was installed for the 1998 season and the current brake setup was introduced later in the year. Since then with the exception of a change from Yoko 008Rs to 032Rs then 048Rs I’ve changed nothing. My lap times have gone from 1:47.3 down to 1:43.7 so an extra ten year experience is worth something when combined with modern tyres.”
I bet you haven’t even changed your pants either in the last 10 years Dave, another 10 years and you may even travel back in time, you will be that quick……
Slowcoach Vic